what is "Spiritual"?

[Vaisnava]

I just want to see what everyone's thoughts are on this...

[Angel One]

Hey Vaisnava! (Gotta love that smiley ;D)
What is Spiritual... Good question.
Well for the purposes of this forum, I use the word "Spiritual" to descibe the general topics that this forum discusses, anything from auras to dream interpretation really.
Personally I think "Spiritual" refers to anything not of this world. Be it a thought, an ideology, an event, or a plane of existance.
I tend to think of it in terms of "spiritual" and "physical" both being opposite, but connected.

[Vaisnava]

Angel said:

Hey Vaisnava! (Gotta love that smiley ;D)
What is Spiritual... Good question.
Well for the purposes of this forum, I use the word "Spiritual" to descibe the general topics that this forum discusses, anything from auras to dream interpretation really.
Personally I think "Spiritual" refers to anything not of this world. Be it a thought, an ideology, an event, or a plane of existance.
I tend to think of it in terms of "spiritual" and "physical" both being opposite, but connected.

Spiritual is often used in a general sense. I don't think many really know the qualities of spirit and so they use the term in a similar way one would use the term "magic". Something beyond our understanding. Well, let me just say that not everything that is currently beyond our understanding is spiritual...


Spiritual and physical being opposites, I agree. But them being connected, I disagree.

It seems natural for people to want to reconcile everything as only differing from another thing merely in a matter of degree. But, in the case of matter vs. spirit, they are eternally diverse energies. Spirit never becomes matter and matter never becomes spirit. Spirit is transcendental to the material dualities. It is not one side of a duality itself.

[Izkata]

I believe that, yes, they are connected (at least a tiny bit)...

What is your Spirit/Soul if not of the Spiritual part of existence? And does it not affect your (physical) body?

[Vaisnava]

Izkata said:

I believe that, yes, they are connected (at least a tiny bit)...

What is your Spirit/Soul if not of the Spiritual part of existence? And does it not affect your (physical) body?

Existence (life), itself, is spiritual. The spirit-soul is the actual entity, not the flesh-body. One is as much the body as they are their shoes or their pants.

The soul is what is responsible for animating these material bodies, but that does not constitute matter and spirit being connected.

Spirit is transcendental. It is never in line with matter. Although spirit acts upon matter, it is always completely *aloof*. Matter does not affect the soul, in any way.

Some people think of matter and spirit as two opposites existing on a single spectrum, and with this they falsely fathom that it is ultimately possible for one to vibrate lower material energy to a point where it becomes spiritual energy.

They fail to understand that duality is a creative quality. Spirit is not created. Spirit is eternal. Eternal means, without beginning and without ending. To put spirit on the same spectrum as matter is contradictory to it's very nature. Doing this puts spirit into a duality similar to the dualities we have within the material world. All material dualities can be reconciled as being merely degrees apart from each other. Spirit, once again, is transcendental. If it wasn't, then there would be no reason in distinguishing between these two energies, matter and spirit. It would all be the same and there would be no enduring reality beyond the growth and decay we experience in this world.

This would ultimately take away the life principle and what we perceive as reality would then cease to exist.
This is where a lot of philosophies come in with their phantasmagoric ideas of non-existence. How nothing really exists, not even ourselves. The sane mind is compelled to accept it's own existence, so long as it is conscious.

[Angel One]

Spiritual and physical being opposites, I agree. But them being connected, I disagree

Well I think everything is connected at some level, even things that seem to oppose one another.

Spirit never becomes matter and matter never becomes spirit.

Arent they they same? I believe that energy, or spirit if thats what youd like to call it, is all theri really is. Spirit can be manifested to form anythign we desire, including matter. I see matter as being just energy that has been molded. A more primitive form of energy if you will...

Matter does not affect the soul, in any way.

That I would agree with. Matter is just the 4 walls of your house, they dont affect what goes on within it.

Spirit is not created. Spirit is eternal. Eternal means, without beginning and without ending. To put spirit on the same spectrum as matter is contradictory to it's very nature

Agreed. However, I think spirit can be manifested, as I said before, to form matter, or to form events or situation on the same spectrum as matter. Matter is still energy, but it has lost most of its force. But matter obeys the same principles of spirit. You cant create it, and you cant destroy it. Only manipulate it.

Thank you for your posts Vaisnava, they have been very insightful. They even helped me to get a few things straight in my head when i was typing up this reply. I sure hope you stick around here...

[Vaisnava]

Angel said:

Well I think everything is connected at some level, even things that seem to oppose one another.

On the material plane, this is true. But spirit is not on the material plane.

Angel said:

Arent they they same? I believe that energy, or spirit if thats what youd like to call it, is all theri really is. I see matter as being just energy that has been molded. A more primitive form of energy if you will...

Allow me to break it down...
Both spirit and matter are eternal. But, matter is eternally in a cycle of manifest and unmanifest. None of the forms that arise from the material energy have any real enduring quality, in and of themselves. This is why it is referred to as "Maya", which means illusion. Ma: not, ya: this. The only thing one can count on in these forms is change.
On the other hand, spirit is unchanging. It is eternally and transcendentally MANIFEST. Spirit's manifestation is far beyond these imperfect material senses. They do not endure in change. This is hard for us to understand because we are so used to the nature of this material world. But, knowing that matter and spirit are opposite realities, we should not make the mistake of thinking that they share the same nature of change.

Angel said:

That I would agree with. Matter is just the 4 walls of your house, they dont affect what goes on within it.

If you agree that matter doesn't affect spirit, how are you going to say that spirit is affected/manipulated into becoming these material forms? I believe you put it, "Spirit can be manifested to form anythign we desire, including matter."

Angel said:

Agreed. However, I think spirit can be manifested, as I said before, to form matter, or to form events or situation on the same spectrum as matter. Matter is still energy, but it has lost most of its force. But matter obeys the same principles of spirit. You cant create it, and you cant destroy it. Only manipulate it.

Spirit can't be manifested. Spirit IS MANIFEST.
Matter doesn't follow the same principles as spirit. Spirit is eternally unchanging. Matter is eternally changing.
You cannot reconcile these two opposing qualities. There is no point which spiritual energy will lower itself to become material energy. The mere fact of it "lowering" itself, constitutes a *change*, and this contradicts the very philosophy of spirit. Spirit does not become less than what IT IS. Spirit only acts upon matter, never does it become matter.

Angel said:

Thank you for your posts Vaisnava, they have been very insightful. They even helped me to get a few things straight in my head when i was typing up this reply. I sure hope you stick around here...

Yeah, I'll be around.

[Angel One]

Spirit is eternally unchanging. Matter is eternally changing.

Spirit is energy. The only reason it is unchanging is because there it IS everything and nothing. Spirit is pure, raw energy. It doesnt need to change to be something else... This is kind ahard to explain...

You cannot reconcile these two opposing qualities. There is no point which spiritual energy will lower itself to become material energy

I think that a sentient entity, IE a human or alien, can mould that spiritual energy to become a manifestation of a lower form of matter, such as physical matter, IE a table or a chair.

[Vaisnava]

Angel said:

Spirit is energy. The only reason it is unchanging is because there it IS everything and nothing. Spirit is pure, raw energy. It doesnt need to change to be something else... This is kind ahard to explain...

Spirit is energy. Matter is energy. The fact that one is changing while the other is unchanging exemplifies them being diverse.

Angel said:

I think that a sentient entity, IE a human or alien, can mould that spiritual energy to become a manifestation of a lower form of matter, such as physical matter, IE a table or a chair.

No, because spirit is unchanging. It cannot be *changed* into a lower form of Itself. There is no lower form of Itself. It is what IT IS, unchanging.

The only manipulating we do is with material energy.

[Angel One]

I understand what your saying... I still think that given enough belief, and enough focus, it should be possible to manipulate energy.
Maybe change isnt a good word... I think its possible to make that energy take the form of everyday objects or events...
You get what im trying to say?

[Vaisnava]

Angel said:

I understand what your saying... I still think that given enough belief, and enough focus, it should be possible to manipulate energy.
Maybe change isnt a good word... I think its possible to make that energy take the form of everyday objects or events...
You get what im trying to say?

I get what you're trying to say. But, I still completely disagree...

Spiritual energy will never become *anything*, it will especially never become something lower than what it is.

It is false to equate spirit with matter. Then I suppose I would be typing ona computer made of spiritual energy. This is nonsensical. Spirit is the life energy. This keyboard has no life, it is an inanimate object. Gross material substance...

If we are going to equate the two energies to have the same fundamental nature, then we might as well stop talking about them separately.

[Angel One]

Ok Maybe an anology...
Solids and gases are completly different things right?
But if you take an ice cube, (solid) you can manipulate it (by heating) and form a gas (steam)
Its still the same substance, its still made of the same energy, its just in a different form.

[Izkata]

Angel said:

Ok Maybe an anology...
Solids and gases are completly different things right?

Not entirely, but I guess it's close enough..


I *think* I get what your *both* trying to say, and you're each saying something slightly different..

[Angel One]

Yeah but the debate is informative yes? Im actually learning a lot...

[Vaisnava]

Angel said:

Ok Maybe an anology...
Solids and gases are completly different things right?
But if you take an ice cube, (solid) you can manipulate it (by heating) and form a gas (steam)
Its still the same substance, its still made of the same energy, its just in a different form.

But that is the very difference between matter and spirit...

these material forms are changing. They are fleeting. The ice cube will eventually melt, and at times is subject to be evaporated into steam. These forms are finite in duration.

Spiritual Forms are eternal. The forms, *themselves* are eternal. It is hard for us to understand this because we are used to these constantly changing material forms.
In the spiritual world, all forms are eternal, they do not begin at some point, nor do they cease in their forms.

You see, the material energy is fundamentally different than the actual forms it manifests. But the spiritual energy is in it's fundamental state **while** it is manifest. This is because these spiritual manifestations are without beginning and without end.

Here's your analogy converted into the spiritual world:

The ice cube and the (converted) steam from the ice cube exist simultaneously. You see, in the spiritual world the ice cube does not cease in it's form to take on the form of steam. The steam is there and the ice cube is there and they are one... and different, simultaneously. They do not share a similar fundamental energy. They ARE the same fundamental energy in their very forms as ice cube and steam.


I hope this clarifies it better for you.


Also, the common mistake that many people make, (and I think you may be doing), is to consider the fundamental and eternal unmanifest material energy to be spiritual energy.

On the contrary, Spirit is MANIFEST. It is manifest far beyond the experience of these imperfect material senses.
It does not become manifest from an unmanifest state.


If this unmanifest material energy was spiritual energy, then there would be no difference between the two, matter and spirit. Growth and decay would be a fundamental fact of both material form and entity. The entity, itself, would be an "unmanifest" reality. This would equate the self to non-existence. All symptoms of consciousness derived of the spirit-soul would be false and thus the identity would be false, which would paradoxically make the spirit-soul, itself, false (or temporary). There would only be Maya. There would only be illusion, and behind this there would be more illusion, and more illusion, and more illusion. Some philosophers become mad from thinking in this way. Nothing can be reconciled. Nothing can be known. But yet, the paradox is; if nothing can be known, then how can one **know** that nothing can be known?? The logical answer to that is that one doesn't know that nothing can be known. But then, how do they know that they don't know that nothing can be known!?! Etc, etc, etc, add infinitum.

Not to mention that spirit would be a subjective duality, which contradicts what spirit is according to the reasoning of the philosophy I have shown herein. And any other philosophy contrary to what I have submitted would fall into the flaws I have addressed above, as well as in a couple other places on this thread.